1h and which shield?

basilmarket.com forums : Warrior | 16 posts archived

thread starter CaLisMe Nov 02 2010 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

As a Paladin, I am aware of the need for a conversion to 1-Handed Sword. I currently have a 134att (crap potential) Blue screamer. Thus, I'll need a shield that would match a 14x Reverse 1-h, or a 117 (u/h) Red Katana. Which shield should I get? Should I make one, or buy one? Would getting a pre-scrolled shield be better than getting a 3-lined clean + shield att scrolls? Thanx in advance.

My Characters: BoxHouse - 101 Khaini White Knight

Kalovale + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

[quote] SilverFoxR : Haha... right... forgot about the added defence post-BB... XD Actually, ShMaiz3R has an interesting idea there when it comes to removing 2-handed options from the Knight path and making them primarily 1-handed... it would be very interesting indeed if Knights specified with 1-handed swords and hammers, while Fighters specified in 2-handed swords and axes. Certainly an interesting idea... ...not like that'd happen at all XD [/quote] What. The potential bonuses on the shield alone is enough reason for everyone and their grandma to go one handed, much like Top/Bottom vs. Overall. Anyone in their right mind would've picked Top/Bottom the moment Bottom Dex + Top Str/Luk scroll combination was available (to them, at least). I don't see why you need to think twice, or even 1.5x, before deciding that onehanded+shield is the way to roll. Added defense? Pshhhhh. Guardian? Pshhhhhhh. Faster cast-time? Euhhhhh. Who cares, really?

My Characters: Kalovale - 148 Windia Dark Knight

ShMaiz3R 11/03/10 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

[quote] Kalovale : Added defense? Pshhhhh. Guardian? Pshhhhhhh. Faster cast-time? Euhhhhh. Who cares, really? [/quote] I care. I didn't make my Paladin purely for DPM.

My Characters: Zexord - 175 Scania Paladin

Kalovale + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

You didn't pick the sarcasm? Let me rephrase it, then. +200% total WDEF/MDEF? Pshhhhhh. 40% chance not to get hit at all? Pshh.... 20% chance of creating an absorb-5-hits-while-adding-30atk Amour? Psh....

My Characters: Kalovale - 148 Windia Dark Knight

ShMaiz3R 11/03/10 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

Sorry. I blame college!

My Characters: Zexord - 175 Scania Paladin

propirat3 11/03/10 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

A 1h sword is only good if you have a good shield but if you dont get 2h sword

My Characters: x2biadepro - 49 Bera Assassin

xxxfsasxxx 11/03/10 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

the fact that you gain a LOT of defensive abilities with a shield is just too good to turn down. i put a lot of my resources into my 2h sword and now that 1h will bring many advantages, although i had to convert to 1h reluctantly, it is not a process i will ever regret

My Characters: LethalTrizle - 162 Khaini Paladin

AdroxNight + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

[quote] ShMaiz3R : It has a cool down time, if you don't have enough DEF/HP you will have to use HP pots before the cool down time is over Why focus on the other items (cubing wise) when all of their levels are lower than than your shield's level ? 127 > 71~120. No matter how you look at it, three lines increase can pretty much cover any ATK reduction, we are talking about pure potential here, no one mentioned funding. I believe I mentioned 2H is pretty much useless for Paladins, not Heroes. I don't know what you're talking about, but I didn't mention anything regarding focusing on cubing shields only while leaving the other equips without cubing. The main point of my last paragraph was why bother scrolling a shield for ATK when you can take an easier way and get the same damage increase or even more from the other equips using less mesos/NX, and why bother getting damage range to higher what you actually need in the first place. @ Your "Shields have to be scrolled with ATK" comments, seems like you have no idea about how hard it is to find a decent pre-scrolled Warrior shield, nor you have an idea about the chances of scrolling a shield without blowing it up, or the chances of finding a cheap 60% for shield for ATK. Very expected from a ST user anyway, nothing else to say. [/quote] 1) ...When have pot costs ever been an issue? Aside from the Dojo? Not to mention, Fiel did explain that Wdef will not be very impressive, and dont forget... That wont help our low MDef, and in areas like the Dojo, I'd expect to take far more magic damage than physical. 2) Maybe not everyone has a VIP Shield? Their supply is limited, and why bother if I already have a good watt shield? Not to mention, you're wrong again. An individual potential bonus loses effectiveness as you obtain more potential bonuses. For example, if you have +100% Str already, the DPM increase of +8% str would be a 4% DPM increase. Not to mention, the damage formula basically multiplies Str by Watt, or Watt by Str. Low STr and high Watt... hinders your Watt. High Str and low Watt hinders Str, but both in balance complements eachother much more. And just to point it out, you have to be either damn lucky or spend a crapload of NX to get good potential bonuses. 3) 2h isnt useless for Paladins. It just means you wont be able to use Shield Mastery or Guardian. Both arent that big of a deal. Shield Mastery only reduces pot costs... assuming you take physical damage, which I believe Paladins often already avoid a lot of damage from ACB's stun. I can only Imagine it being significant when tanking a boss. For Guardian, you probably wont have it till a high level anyway since Blase, ACB, Holy Charge, Stance, etc. take priority. 4) Simply put, I explained that effective damage increases require Watt and Str. Focusing on one or the other will hinder you or it would cost more to achieve the same damage range. Not to mention, shields have Watt scrolls and rival/surpass Watt gloves... Why would you not want i

My Characters: AdroxNight - 143 Bellocan Hero

taleko 11/03/10 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

Zex and Adro, guys cool down a bit hey? I love you both but this could get a little nasty if you guys don;t calm it down a little both of you do know what you are talking about, @Zex, 2h's do have a place for Pally's, they are still effective until you start putting skills into the points that are better for 1h, i.e. if you go holy/acb/HH/Rush (pre BB)/MM (post BB) or a similar build you dont 'have' to get a 1h sword straight away, if i were to make a pally i'd stick with a 2h for the cost effectivenss until the last possible moment (assuming i didn't take the shield off my sader), 2h's are still good for 1st to 3rd job remember, so should PA's be removed from Drk's (pre-BB) since they are not as useful in 4th job? (no dig here, just throwing out a comparison) Adro is more of the train of thought about balancing you equips, he is arguing that with a 2h it will always get roughly a 10% overall gain for a ST/NRW whereas with 200% in str% buffs already a further 10% only effectively adds 5% to your range (bit of bodge factor here but you get the idea, diminishing returns and all that jazz) Zex, weren't you a ST user for a time? not to mention a dexless one? (or was it 10 base?) {again not a dig, just a comment on cost efficiency} Adro Zex knows her stuff, unlike a different person speculating on post BB things (you know who i am talking about here). Zex taught me new ways of looking at things when i thought i had it all down, you might have a disagreement with her, but please don't let it escalate to (hewhodroppedtheF-BOMB)what i have seen. I like you guys both too much to see you fight.

My Characters: Talekah - 109 Scania Crusader

AdroxNight 11/03/10 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

[quote] taleko : Adro is more of the train of thought about balancing you equips, he is arguing that with a 2h it will always get roughly a 10% overall gain for a ST/NRW whereas with 200% in str% buffs already a further 10% only effectively adds 5% to your range (bit of bodge factor here but you get the idea, diminishing returns and all that jazz) . [/quote] i wouldnt say a 10% overall gain. I'd call it a 10% advantage that can be overcome with enough Watt. For example, that 10% advantage will be more significant vs. a Sparta (a weapon of equal level), than when compared to a R. Executioner or VIP 1h Sword (for example pre-BB, I subtracted 15Watt as an estimate off of the ST's advantages when comparing the ST and RE because of the RE's higher base watt and compatability with the maker skill). No offense. I'm just trying ot be perfectly clear on what I meant by 10% advantage. And of course funding will always be a factor. I doubt most players will find using a 1h and shield more effective than a 2h sword (especially with the lionheart, jap map, ST, NRW, 50% scrolls, etc running around.). Its mostly those with very high funding that will find the 1h + shield more effective.

My Characters: AdroxNight - 143 Bellocan Hero

Manaphy777 11/03/10 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

get a str % equip shield

My Characters: HokageDualer - 75 Scania Blade Specialist

xxxfsasxxx 11/03/10 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

a maple shield is pretty out of the question for most people. the extra %str achieved per line on lvl 71+ shields by far beat the extra att you achieve from the extra 3 slots on a maple shield. however, saying this, a vip shield is usually out of budget for most people. browsing fm for the last few days, i've seen 2 lined ones in fm for 150-300m which has the maximum potential of 24% str whereas a 3 line lvl 71+ shield can achieve 27% str. so a vip shield is out of the question unless you can afford to buy a unpotentialed or 3 line one

My Characters: LethalTrizle - 162 Khaini Paladin

Mancartia + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

My Characters: Oooh - 152 Bera Paladin

Yuenlung 11/03/10 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

[quote] xxxfsasxxx : after BB, you need 19% less attack on your 1h + shield to do the same DPM as you 2h (include all other equips in the calculation) this doesnt include potential so as long as u have the same/better potentials on your sword+ shield than your 2h, you'll do more DPM [/quote] Explain please how you get ~19%. The multipliers are 1.2 and 1.32 last I recall, that's only a 10% advantage.

My Characters: NightlReaver - 162 Windia Paladin

ShMaiz3R + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

[quote] AdroxNight : 1) ...When have pot costs ever been an issue? Aside from the Dojo? Not to mention, Fiel did explain that Wdef will not be very impressive, and dont forget... That wont help our low MDef, and in areas like the Dojo, I'd expect to take far more magic damage than physical. 2) Maybe not everyone has a VIP Shield? Their supply is limited, and why bother if I already have a good watt shield? Not to mention, you're wrong again. An individual potential bonus loses effectiveness as you obtain more potential bonuses. For example, if you have +100% Str already, the DPM increase of +8% str would be a 4% DPM increase. Not to mention, the damage formula basically multiplies Str by Watt, or Watt by Str. Low STr and high Watt... hinders your Watt. High Str and low Watt hinders Str, but both in balance complements eachother much more. And just to point it out, you have to be either damn lucky or spend a crapload of NX to get good potential bonuses. 3) 2h isnt useless for Paladins. It just means you wont be able to use Shield Mastery or Guardian. Both arent that big of a deal. Shield Mastery only reduces pot costs... assuming you take physical damage, which I believe Paladins often already avoid a lot of damage from ACB's stun. I can only Imagine it being significant when tanking a boss. For Guardian, you probably wont have it till a high level anyway since Blase, ACB, Holy Charge, Stance, etc. take priority. 4) Simply put, I explained that effective damage increases require Watt and Str. Focusing on one or the other will hinder you or it would cost more to achieve the same damage range. Not to mention, shields have Watt scrolls and rival/surpass Watt gloves... Why would you not want it? 5) And I dont think you understand that cubing things gets damn expensive. 6) sorry for having a brain and having extensive knowledge in mathematics. [/quote] I don't know why you like to turn my replies into something completely different, but whatever, I will just reply for the heck of it. - HP pots usage wasn't an issue, it's just the time you start to completely replace HP pots with Restoration skill which is a 3rd job skill. Basically higher DEF/HP means being able to make a full use of that skill earlier, saving USE slots for something else such Ciders/MP pots/etc. It's true that the actual value of DEF was halved, however, that just means Paladins out of all classes benefit more than anyone else from DEF due to their Shield Mastery skill tripling their overall DEF. About magic damage, why take magic damage when you're able to prevent it by taking constant physical damage ? - In Scania, VIP shields are everywhere, 2-lined being worth only 100m~ and more than max for 3-lined ones. Things will change once GMS gets BB, VIP equips will be everywhere, and everyone will be able to buy/obtain some. The ratio between STR and ATK has been known for ages, thing is the amount of ATK shields can offer is nothing compared to the other sources of ATK such Weapons & Ap

My Characters: Zexord - 175 Scania Paladin

Yuenlung 11/03/10 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

I don't exactly see the point of 2h sword preference unless you have either of these conditions going for the said individual: A) Preference for big long things/hate on carrying a shield (we do have NX Invisible Shield for that) B) Got a few 50%'s on you to throw around. (purely cheaper) Other than those reasons, logically the person would go 1h instead. 2h is rather limiting...

My Characters: NightlReaver - 162 Windia Paladin