Debunking God: Refuting St. Aquinas's five "Proofs" for God.

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thread starter Automobile Apr 08 2010 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

If you keep the conversation mature, I will buy a round of drinks for the house. I have recieved multiple messages where another user believes that St. Aquinas has proved that God exists, and I find it rather depressing that one would believe these supplementations made by purveyors of misconcieved common sense. St. Aquinas' five proofs for God : The Unmoved Mover - Nothing moves without a prior mover. This leads us to a regress, from which the only escape is God. Something had to make the first move, and that something we call God. The Uncaused Cause - Nothing is caused by itself. Every effect has a prior cause, and again we are pushed back into regress. This has to be terminated by a first cause, which we call God. The Cosmological Argument - There must have been a time when no physical things existed, but since physical things exist now, there must have been something non-physical to bring them into existence. That something we call God. The Argument from Degree - (I can't really type this up without feeling like an idiot. This "proof" is anything but proof.)We notice that things in the world differ. There are degrees of, say, goodness or perfection, but we judge these degress only by comparison with a maximum. Humans can be both good and bad, so the maximum goodness cannot rest in us. Therefore there must be some other maximum to set the standard for perfection, and we call that maximum God. The Teleological Argument - Things in the world, especially living things look as though they have been designed. Nothing that we know looks designed unless it is designed. Therefore there must have been a designer, and we call him God. Refutations of St. Aquinas's 5 proofs for God The Unmoved Mover The Uncaused Cause The Cosmological Argument Refutation - The first three are different was of saying the same thing, and they can be considered together. All of them involve an infinite regress (which means that the answer to a question raises a prior question, ad infinitum ). All three of these arguments rely upon the idea of a regress and invoke God to terminate it. They make the entirely unwarranted assumption that God himself is immune to the regress. Even if we allow the dubious luxury of arbitrarily conjuring up a terminator to an infinite regress and giving it a name, simply because we need one, there is absolutely no reason to endow that terminator with any of the properties normally ascribed to the Abrahamic God. It could be Thor, Wotan, Buddha, or any other thousands of alleged deities. Ergo, those three proofs are invalid, and we didn't even break a sweat. Moving on. The Cosmological Argument Refutation - This is not even a proof. Essentially, I can slap any other quality in place of goodness, such as wickedness, blood-thirsty, malevolent. Let's try it with St. Aquinas's logic. People vary in malevolence, but we can make the comparison only by reference to a perfect maximum of concievable malevolence. Therefore there must exist a pre-eminently all-

dilsl + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

I just don't understand how the big bang came out of nothing, there' cant just be a singulairty out of no where, from NOTHING. Hence, God exists. and, you said "Besides, theists seem to believe that irreducible complexity works on their side. God is irreducibly complex. A single-celled organism arising from nothing is certainly an event infinitely more probable to happen than the sudden appearance of an omnipotent, omniscient being that is everything at once, and is able to create and destroy anything concieved by the mind, and simultaneously listen to the prayers of over seven billion people and adequately answer each individual request.". Most creationists believe there was no sudden appearance; God is supposed to have existed forever, therefore has not been created. Obviously God has to be all powerful, be able to create and destroy anything, listen to everything at once, that is because it IS God.

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d4rkxStrIfe 04/08/10 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

Couldn't have put it better. You sir, deserve a medal.

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freshhh04 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

[quote] dilsl : I just don't understand how the big bang came out of nothing, there' cant just be a singulairty out of no where, from NOTHING. Hence, God exists. [/quote] Complex intelligence, which is what a creator god would require, does not just spontaneously form out of nothing, instead, being the result of millions of years of chance and natural selection. [quote] dilsl : Most creationists believe there was no sudden appearance; God is supposed to have existed forever, therefore has not been created. Obviously God has to be all powerful, be able to create and destroy anything, listen to everything at once, that is because it IS God. [/quote] Saying that God has existed forever could perhaps be considered the king of all cop-outs, and a complete and utter intellectually bankrupt way of evading the responsibility of explanation.

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Daftehh 04/08/10 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

Sure there may be a god but that doesnt mean that it cares about us

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Fade2BlacK 04/08/10 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

[quote] dilsl : I just don't understand how the big bang came out of nothing, there' cant just be a singulairty out of no where, from NOTHING. Hence, God exists. and, you said "Besides, theists seem to believe that irreducible complexity works on their side. God is irreducibly complex. A single-celled organism arising from nothing is certainly an event infinitely more probable to happen than the sudden appearance of an omnipotent, omniscient being that is everything at once, and is able to create and destroy anything concieved by the mind, and simultaneously listen to the prayers of over seven billion people and adequately answer each individual request.". Most creationists believe there was no sudden appearance; God is supposed to have existed forever, therefore has not been created. Obviously God has to be all powerful, be able to create and destroy anything, listen to everything at once, that is because it IS God. [/quote] quantum fluctuation

dilsl 04/08/10 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

[quote] freshhh04 : Complex intelligence, which is what a creator god would require, does not just spontaneously form out of nothing, instead, being the result of millions of years of chance and natural selection. [/quote] Most creationists don't believe God spontaneously formed, they believe that God always existed and therefore had no creator, or earlier forms.

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freshhh04 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

[quote] dilsl : Most creationists don't believe God spontaneously formed, they believe that God always existed and therefore had no creator, or earlier forms. [/quote] What modern evolutionary synthesis has revealed to human knowledge is that complex intelligence can only arise after a long period of gradual evolution over millions of years. To posit an eternal being with these evolutionary qualities as having always existed in its current state is an extremely unlikely assumption. The bottom line: if God exists, then he must have been evolved in some form or another.

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GrayFigure + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

maybe god does exist thought i still wouldn't believe in him , but doesn't give a ..... about us anymore :P

MrKratos + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

-Sigh- In the end God Vs. No God. There is no answer. You cannot prove god. Nor can you not prove god. Which is why I'm an Atheist until further proof of a god. Any kind of god. Big Bang made by god? Who created god? He can't just go 'Poof'.

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RiceBreak 04/08/10 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

[quote] MrKratos : -Sigh- In the end God Vs. No God. There is no answer. If you cannot prove god. Nor can you not prove god. Which is why I'm an Atheist until further proof of a god. Any kind of god. Big Bang made by god? Who created god? He can't just go 'Poof'. [/quote] Neither can we.

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HolyMythos 04/08/10 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

It's obvious that the Bible doesn't follow laws of science, so why are you using science to try and prove it wrong?

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Misacorp 04/08/10 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

Do you people never get tired of trying to apply reasoning to matters of faith?

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freshhh04 04/08/10 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

[quote] Misacorp : Do you people never get tired of trying to apply reasoning to matters of faith? [/quote] What other choice do we have?

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GrayFigure 04/08/10 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

[quote] RiceBreak : Neither can we. [/quote] but atheist in general don't believe we go poof. we believe in the evolution theory.