What If You're Wrong?

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thread starter Transcendence Jul 28 2010 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

What if God DOES exist? What if all you believed isn't how it's going to turn out. What if heaven and hell exist, and you end up in hell for blasphemy? What then? Does the thought of it ever cross your mind? Don't change my thread by reversing the question ... Simply respond. Summary of the thread so far, 100% of the Atheists are going to hell, accompanied by roughly 95% of the religious people. If hell exists.

My Characters: lefur - 15 Khaini Aran Awakened

MaikuX3 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

rofl Pascal's Wager. Lets hope for your sake Christianity is wrong and Hinduism is correct. Besides heaven sounds boring, I would rather be reincarnated into a Japanese pop idol. If any other religion other than Christianity is correct, then I can almost gaurentee that you and your fruithat will not have a pleasant afterlife.

My Characters: MaikuX3 - 151 Broa I/L Arch Mage

Mindstormer + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

Evidence is not the main issue in disbelief of God. The issue is more basic and fundamental however, it�s the hardness of the heart of man and his natural desire to persist in unbelief. Pharaoh and the Pharisees serve as cases in point, they simply "knew" that they were right regardless of evidence. In the words of Solomon: What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done, and there is nothing new under the sun. What I know is simply this: My life is far more saturated with a sense of meaning, purpose, happiness and peace than it was before a relationship with God. Whether or not heaven exists is of little relevance to my experience thus far.

My Characters: Mstormer - 128 Scania F/P Arch Mage

RaggleFraggle 07/28/10 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

"In your FACE, SUCKAAAAAAA"

My Characters: PickMyFist - 24 Khaini Pirate

NapalmDe4th 07/28/10 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

[quote] Mindstormer : Evidence is not the main issue in disbelief of God. The issue is more basic and fundamental however, it�s the hardness of the heart of man and his natural desire to persist in unbelief. Pharaoh and the Pharisees serve as cases in point, they simply "knew" that they were right regardless of evidence. [/quote] Isn't this part of your response extremely ironic, given how, when presented with evidence that Young Earth Creationism was wrong and that the Biblical account of creation was, as far as one could logically and rationally tell, incorrect? You basically cited a passage of the Bible (even though its premises had been discredited) which amounted to little more than "I know I am right and I am taking solace from this passage". Besides, it contradicts another statement you said earlier that the type of God humanity would want to exist is the one that exists. If that's the case, why would it be a natural instinct to not want to believe in something you want to be true?

My Characters: JoyDivision7 - 72 Scania White Knight

Ninjenk 07/28/10 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

[quote] Transcendence : He didn't create atheists to hate on him. Satan made you hate him. [/quote] For the sake of argument, could'nt Satan be a good guy? If he was never in the picture, none of us would have had our individuality. According to Christian faith, without Satan, you would be just like everyone else. You would not have your own vices to become your own person. You would be the same as everyone else up in Heaven never living life with challenges, or the joy that comes from overcoming and geting past lifes obstacles.Satan made whats her face eat an apple out of curisosity. That same curiosty drives our world today, it gives us the wanting of more, which leaves the world with techonology. You should thank Satan for giving you this life on Earth, where you can pose questions like this, and experience joy and sorrow. Satan gave us our ability to strive for Love, and Philosophies about the mysteries surrounding our world. He never did anything else wrong except question the meaning of existence. Note : This is for the sake of argument. Im not a Satanist, or a religous person.

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MaikuX3 07/28/10 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

Yay, now that Mindstormer is here, he can reclaim his title and dethrone the hawaiian furry who knows less about his own religion than atheists.

My Characters: MaikuX3 - 151 Broa I/L Arch Mage

Mindstormer + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

[quote] NapalmDe4th : Isn't this part of your response extremely ironic, given how, when presented with evidence that Young Earth Creationism was wrong and that the Biblical account of creation was, as far as one could logically and rationally tell, incorrect? You basically cited a passage of the Bible (even though its premises had been discredited) which amounted to little more than "I know I am right and I am taking solace from this passage". [/quote] In the hundreds of pages of discussion I've had on the topic here, I have no recollection of that instance, though entirely possible. That said, there is also sufficient evidence of the inadequacy and uncertainty of current models, were evidence the issue. [quote] NapalmDe4th : Besides, it contradicts another statement you said earlier that the type of God humanity would want to exist is the one that exists. [/quote] Sure, that is what you call a testimony from someone who claims to personally know. Humans vary, some want stranger things than others. When I said that, it was within the context of a God characterized by positive traits and characteristics. [quote] NapalmDe4th : If that's the case, why would it be a natural instinct to not want to believe in something you want to be true? [/quote] Minor misinterpretation of what I meant. Contextually, to persist in unbelief would be unbelief of whatever is outside of your own particular worldview. Don't lose sight of the variable: Individuals with their own worldview.

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dimo 07/28/10 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

If a all-powerful all-seeing deity exists then I would assume he would not grant passage to an afterlife based on a book, especially one which is as open for interpretation as the bible.

My Characters: SirAchilles - 113 Bera Crusader

TheOrange 07/28/10 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

[quote] Mindstormer : Evidence is not the main issue in disbelief of God. The issue is more basic and fundamental however, it�s the hardness of the heart of man and his natural desire to persist in unbelief. Pharaoh and the Pharisees serve as cases in point, they simply "knew" that they were right regardless of evidence. In the words of Solomon: What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done, and there is nothing new under the sun. What I know is simply this: My life is far more saturated with a sense of meaning, purpose, happiness and peace than it was before a relationship with God. Whether or not heaven exists is of little relevance to my experience thus far. [/quote] When I was Christian, I felt scared, confused, and guilty. Scared to go to hell, confused about why God would cause so much pain and suffering, and guilty for every single bad thing I've done, no matter how small. Now that I'm atheist, I really feel more enlightened and like a person, rather than just a puppet of God's will.

My Characters: RagingKoi - 78 KradiaGMS Sniper

Mindstormer + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

[quote] dimo : If a all-powerful all-seeing deity exists then I would assume he would not grant passage to an afterlife based on a book, especially one which is as open for interpretation as the bible. [/quote] If an all-powerful, all-seeing deity exists, then I probably wouldn't hang my conclusions on assumption. TheOrange: I'm sorry to hear that, especially considering that that's not what Christianity was ever supposed to be about, nor based on.

My Characters: Mstormer - 128 Scania F/P Arch Mage

TheOrange 07/28/10 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

[quote] Mindstormer : If an all-powerful, all-seeing deity exists, then I probably wouldn't hang my conclusions on assumption. TheOrange: I'm sorry to hear that, especially considering that that's not what Christianity was ever supposed to be about, nor based on. [/quote] 1. Then what are you hanging on? 2. Well, that's what it honestly felt like, to me.

My Characters: RagingKoi - 78 KradiaGMS Sniper

dimo 07/28/10 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

[quote] Mindstormer : If an all-powerful, all-seeing deity exists, then I probably wouldn't hang my conclusions on assumption. . [/quote] Isn't Christianity, as well as many other religions, based on one rather large assumption?

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Mindstormer + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

[quote] TheOrange : 1. Then what are you hanging on? 2. Well, that's what it honestly felt like, to me. [/quote] I'm simply resting in my relationship with God and enjoying it. I need not assume what I experience and know. I don't doubt that that's what it felt like. Without a relationship with God, that's all that Christianity seems to be: A bunch of rules with punishment if you disregard them.

My Characters: Mstormer - 128 Scania F/P Arch Mage

NapalmDe4th + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

[quote] Mindstormer : In the hundreds of pages of discussion I've had on the topic here, I have no recollection of that instance, though entirely possible. That said, there is also sufficient evidence of the inadequacy and uncertainty of current models, were evidence the issue. [/quote] It did happen, I remember Sutper provided the definitive link, and you ended up asking if there would be an instance in which a scientist would track a gas rather than Uranium, although the details of which are a little fuzzy. At any rate, the premises of Genesis were disproved and if there is no sufficient or questionable evidence for the year attributed to the Earth by science (I think the best argument you provided was that the Grand Canyon's exact date could not be determined, which is actually a rather inconsequential point that misunderstands the science), it does not make any other theory more possible or viable, especially one which has been absolutely discredited. [quote] Mindstormer : Sure, that is what you call a testimony from someone who claims to personally know. Humans vary, some want stranger things than others. When I said that, it was within the context of a God characterized by positive traits and characteristics. [/quote] And yet with the overwhelming majority of Atheists I've spoken to, they have all agreed that having a good, caring God would be great, but there was no real reason to believe in such a supposition. It seems as if human nature is to want a good God to exist but to shy away from it once the idea is scrutinized. [quote] Mindstormer : Minor misinterpretation of what I meant. Contextually, to persist in unbelief would be unbelief of whatever is outside of your own particular worldview. Don't lose sight of the variable: Individuals with their own worldview. [/quote] You made your comment based on generalizations, not on an individual level, or else I would have responded differently. I remember that upon my friend convincing me that Atheism was more logically sound that Christianity, he reminded me to keep my mind open. As said before, quite a number of Atheists are willing to change their opinions if satisfactory proof is given, and to be a bit dogged on your current views isn't limited to people with disbelief, which is why we have so many "Faith over logic"-esque comments once a Christian apologist has no more logical reasons to provide. @ Above: Any sort of interaction between man and deity is a relationship anyway.

My Characters: JoyDivision7 - 72 Scania White Knight

KnifeLegend + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

I believe that if there were a god, he would favor honest disbelief over dishonest belief. EDIT: [quote] Chickenz : The chances of the world ending up this way WITHOUT the help of an intelligent being are slim to none. -How did we end up becoming the dominant beings on Earth, while other animals simply cannot "think for themselves?" -There are so many counter-theories to the Big Bang Theory that it simply isn't credible. Besides, we don't even know who or what created the dust and other particles that caused the supposed "Big Bang" to happen. . And don't get me started with that australopithecus and cro magnon bs. [/quote] Okay, I'm going to call you out on this one. First of all, according to Ockham's Razor, the chances of the universe existing and turning out the way it is today are, in fact, less likely to have transpired by way of a creator. Basically, if you didn't know this already, Ockham's Razor states that the simplest explanation for something is the most likely to be correct. Well then, you might say, "Well then, wouldn't the simplest explanation be that God just created everything?" No, it wouldn't, and let me explain why. For example, if I were asked how clouds are formed, I could say a) The evaporation and condensation of water (something factual that we already know) or, b) When God makes water evaporate and condense (an answer that adds an unneeded level of complexity to the answer not supported by fact). So, saying that the universe, life on Earth, or anything else was created by a god is less likely than it being created otherwise. On your next point, let me give you a little Evolution 101. The goal of evolution is not to produce intelligent life, it is to ensure that life survives, which in most cases (in fact in every case on Earth except that of humans) does not require the level of intelligence that humans posses today. In our situation, the only way for us to survive was to become as intelligent as we are today. Thirdly, just because a theory has counter-theories doesn't make it less credible. That's like saying that it's very unlikely that your mother gave birth to you because you also could have magically appeared out of nothing, been delivered by a stork, or been molded out of Play-Doh. I think you made that statement under the assumption that all theories about something are equal in credibility, thus the more theories there are the less likely they become. As I have just demonstrated, that is untrue. Also, the most likely explanation is that the universe came into existence because of something called quantum fluctuations (which, you may be interested to know, do not require the existence of anything else to occur), not "particles or dust". And lastly, I'd like it if you would get started with that "australopithecus and cro magnon bs." I find it strange that you would choose to go against fossil evidence, so I'm interested in hearing what you have to say.

My Characters: TheNihilist - 137 Bera Night Lord