Best potential Spear.

basilmarket.com forums : Warrior | 16 posts archived

thread starter SmileForMe Mar 23 2010 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

Alright, I'm looking into white scrolling a perfect end game spear. Now of course getting a 102 sky ski is close to impossible, so I'm expecting to do a 101 but I might luck out. I'm kind of in a slight debate with friends saying that it be better for me to white scroll a falt because SI would give me the best potential. Yes SI will not always be accessible but as I said, best potential. I also know it's dependent on attack equips, so wouldn't the sky skii have the best potential realistically. Alright to sum it all up, what spear should I be scrolling.

My Characters: Geminidawn - 157 Khaini Dark Knight

evilkaz 03/23/10 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

My money is on the Skis, but I have always prefered faster weapons, and as said, you can always resell them for a hell of a lot of mesos once your done with MS or your DrK, whereas with the reverse, its kinda wasted mesos if you do quit.

My Characters: KHAlNlkaz - 150 Khaini Hero

Jigglyjello + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

My Characters: DinoAbramie - 91 Broa Dragon Knight

IceyMage123 03/23/10 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

The SI excuse is just used by jealous people who can't get a faster weapon themselves usually. I'd reccomend the skiis Reverse Weapons have no resale value and are unpredictable (Maker/Level wise)

My Characters: phoen1xjav - 155 Scania Hero

mewmeister + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

[quote] aslan70 : lol everyone is calculating here, and missing the very big but simple point. the REAL question is, are you only going to boss, or are you going to train most of the time? this could happen you have a faltizan and you 1 hit ko skeletons. you have a sky ski, you hit skeletons and it leaves hp, so you have to crusher 2 times. the speed of the sky ski is very UNimportant when training, 1 hit ko-ing is the fastest way to train. [/quote] If both weapons are theoritically on par in DPS (hereafter referred to as being equivalent), then that simply won't happen (or not the way you make it sound); assuming the falt always kills in one hit, the ski usually will too, only occasionally failing to do so. For the ski to always 2HKO, an equivalent falt would have to usually do so too, only sometimes killing in one hit. Even with 80% mastery, the damage is NOT stable enough for a small change in damage to change a guaranteed 1HKO into a guaranteed 2HKO. It's actually worth pointing out that this is one use of spear fury, which if used to finish off the last bit of HP (since it's faster than crusher) would change the scenario from both weapons being roughly even (the ski would kill slightly faster most of the time, but would kill a fair bit slower occasionally, which would roughly balance out) to the ski actually potentially having a slight advantage, because when it fails to kill them on one hit, it wouldn't take enough additional time to counter how much faster it usually kills. This assumes that the falt is exactly strong enough to guarantee a OHKO; if it's stronger than it needs to be, then the extra damage isn't doing anything to help it compete with an equivalent ski, causing the chance of an equivalent ski killing in more hits not to be enough to make up for usually killing faster. To be fair though, since the speed advantage of the ski while using crusher is less than the speed advantage one weapon speed offers many other skills, it may be harder for a ski to be equivalent to a slow (7) spear in the first place than it would be for some other weapons types to be equivalent to another weapon of the same type one weapon speed slower (e.g. it may be harder for a ski to compete with a reverse spear (assuming it's slow (7) and not (8); I can't remember off the top of my head) when using crusher than it is for a ST to compete with a reverse 2HS when using brandish, blast, or ACB).

My Characters: blueeyesmew - 109 Windia Dragon Knight

MindSpaz 03/23/10 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

Really depends on what your preference is. I would suggest scrolling a ski for a better DPM, but on the other hand, if you have a reverse weapon, you can 1 hit alot of enemy's.

My Characters: MindSpazHero - 46 Windia Fighter

chickenpoodl 03/23/10 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

if you're perfect scrolling a weapon, go for a the faltizan or the reverse. honestly nowadays with our gear itself, monsters with higher defense and hp is always coming out too. consideirng your level as well, you will benefit from the higher atk stats. sure, ski might be slightly better at bosses, but you lose out on the HUGE 1-hko ability when you'er missing almsot 30atk out of the spear itself. having a perfeect reverse for instance gives you dpm that is almsot if not equal to taht of the ski, plus you get the big power from the raw atk stats. the perfect ski for instance will never 1hko that crap in time temple oblivion 5 and stuff. the reverse? you got a much better chance. before we got maker skill, skiis weree the best choice. but now? the difference is so negligible, that seriously the revrse is probably something you can't go wrong. not to mention you can maker skill these df and reverse spears for any other stat you might be lacking, such as slightly more dex, or acc, or even speed/jump. coming from me? (someone who chose a ski), i think it speaks lots.

My Characters: chickenpoodl - 200 Bera Dark Knight

AdroxNight + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

Its pretty simple, grab a pair of 105 watt Sky Skis and 50% WS it 9 times (absolute perfection is 1 50% then getting lucky with 8 Chaos, but good luck with that). Anyway, you get this: 50% WSx9: 150 Watt, 27 Str, 12 Acc 50% WS + 9 Chaos: 150 Watt, 43 Str, 52 acc and someone explain to me how that makes you lose out on ohko ability. But if you want to factor in SI or simply want a different spear, aim for this: (And I dont know what the highest base is using a stimulator, cant find a decent source for that) Alchipiz: 112 + 3 Diamond + 3 Black Crystal + 5 Str Crystal + 5 Watt Stimulator (I'm assuming) + 6 Watt level up + 6 Str + 3 Dex 50% WS: 174 Watt, 38 Str, 3 dex Chaos: 174 WAtt, 56 Str, 48 Dex

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djp2313 03/23/10 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

[quote] AdroxNight : Its pretty simple, grab a pair of 105 watt Sky Skis and 50% WS it 9 times (absolute perfection is 1 50% then getting lucky with 8 Chaos, but good luck with that). Anyway, you get this: 50% WSx9: 150 Watt, 27 Str, 12 Acc 50% WS + 9 Chaos: 150 Watt, 43 Str, 52 acc and someone explain to me how that makes you lose out on ohko ability. [/quote] Let's see Max sky ski is 102, so max is 147 attack max reverse is 129, so max is 174 attack 27 attack is a lot -- talking nearly 1500points in range -- All it takes is one thing in your mob to not get 1hko'd and youve got to use another attack Unlike what the person above said this is a big factor because we do have 80% mastery,have 3 hits in our attack (which provides even more stability) and there is a large difference in attack that is presented with the two choices. Not to mention at a place like O4 you need every bit of attack you can get your hands on because while we won't make it up to 1hko area with a perfect reverse we play around in damage range areas that cause differing percentages of rush+crush kos -- small changes in range make big differences in those scenarios and 27 attack is a large difference to your range.

My Characters: darknightr - 176 Bera Dark Knight

mewmeister + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

*Edit* Ok, the chances of killing in one hit in the following are completely wrong because I was stupid enough to forget to take into account that crusher is a 3-hit attack. The result of this is actually that the chance for the slow spear to kill in one hit in the first scenario is actually reduced significantly, shifting favour towards the ski. On the other hand, if the slow spear always kills in one hit but the ski doesn't, then the chance for the ski to kill in one hit is reduced, shifting favour towards the slow spear. *Edit 2* Ok, I've redone the calcs and changed the figures; they should now be correct. For a DrK, a 6.67% damage increase (since the speed advantage of the ski is roughly that with crusher, that's roughly what it'd take for a slow (7) spear to match the DPS of a ski) could cause a guaranteed 2HKO to become a roughly 7% chance to 1HKO (this is far less than the 23% chance to OHKO if crusher was a single hit), if the guaranteed 2HKO was only just short of a 1HKO. In this scenario, both weapons have roughly the same average killing speed against a single target. On the other hand, there's the possibility that in the 2HKO scenario the range is too low for that 7% damage increase to produce any chance of a 1HKO; it's NOT possible for such a damage increase to turn a guaranteed 2HKO into a guaranteed 1HKO (only a chance of a 1HKO), but it IS possible for that 7% increase to have no affect on killing speed whatsoever, in which case the faster weapon has a 6.67% advantage in killing speed. To confuse matters more, in the first scenario, the chance of killing each enemy in one hit was roughly 7%, but the chance of killing three enemies at once in one hit is around 0.0343%, else it'd leave at least one alive and require you to attack again, making the mob as a whole a 2HKO. This actually results in the stronger weapon killing a mob of three around 6.665% slower on average than a weapon it in theory should be on par with on DPS. Make that a 0.49% chance of killing a mob of two at once for a roughly 6.4% disadvantage in average killing speed compared to the ski. So in the scenario of a ski always killing in two hits, against 2-3 enemies the slow weapon doesn't do as well against the ski as DPS would claim, but against one enemy the slow weapon could do better than expected, or worse than expected. If the slow spear always kills in one hit but the ski can kill in two, then hitting more enemies shifts favour towards the slow spear instead (although if the ski rarely kills in two hits, then it only makes the slow spear less unfavourable). If both can kill in either in either number of hits then it can go either way. Against enemies that take more hits to kill, the weapons would be closer, with the extreme being bosses, where they'd have roughly the same average killing speed.

My Characters: blueeyesmew - 109 Windia Dragon Knight

kersje 03/23/10 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

You should get two. The sky ski's for bossing, and maybe a stronger, slower spear for training. If you can kill monsters in less hits with the slower spear (i.e. 2 hits instead of 3), use that one for training. If the amount of hits it takes is the same, use the ski's. But this is more expensive. I suggest scrolling the ski's first and maybe a reverse later as a bonus.

My Characters: Asophroon - 72 Broa Aran in Misery

Gardor 03/23/10 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

And they say warriors have no intelligence psshhh... I'd like to see the mage forums do the same.

My Characters: Tezzick - 106 Bera White Knight

Sakuraba 03/23/10 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

[quote] mewmeister : *Edit* Ok, the chances of killing in one hit in the following are completely wrong because I was stupid enough to forget to take into account that crusher is a 3-hit attack. The result of this is actually that the chance for the slow spear to kill in one hit in the first scneario is actually reduced significantly, shifting favour towards the ski. On the other hand, if the slow spear always kills in one hit but the ski doesn't, then the chance for the ski to kill in one hit is reduced, shifting favour towards the slow spear. Ok, I've just surprised myself here; for a DrK, a 6.67% damage increase (since the speed advantage of the ski is roughly that with crusher, that's roughly what it'd take for a slow (7) spear to match the DPS of a ski) could cause a guaranteed 2HKO to become up to a roughly 23% chance to 1HKO, if the guaranteed 2HKO was only just short of a 1HKO. In the best case scenario, the slower weapon actually has a roughly 6% advantage in average killing speed per enemy against a ski that it in theory has equal DPS to. On the other hand, there's the possibility that in the 2HKO scenario the range is too low for that 7% damage increase to produce any chance of a 1HKO; it's NOT possible for such a damage increase to turn a guaranteed 2HKO into a guaranteed 1HKO (only a chance of a 1HKO), but it IS possible for that 7% increase to have no affect on killing speed whatsoever, in which case the faster weapon has a 6.67% advantage in killing speed. To confuse matters more, in the first scenario, the chance of killing each enemy in one hit was roughly 23%, but the chance of killing three enemies at once in one hit is around 1.24%, else it'd leave at least one alive and require you to attack again, making the mob as a whole a 2HKO. This actually results in the stronger weapon killing a mob of three 6% slower on average than a weapon it in theory should be on par with on DPS. Make that a 5.36% chance of killing a mob of two at once for a roughly 3.8% disadvantage in average killing speed compared to the ski. So in the scenario of a ski always killing in two hits, against 2-3 enemies the slow weapon doesn't do as well against the ski as DPS would claim, but against one enemy the slow weapon could do better than expected, or worse than expected. If the slow spear always kills in one hit but the ski can kill in two, then hitting more enemies shifts favour towards the slow spear instead (although if the ski rarely kills in two hits, then it only makes the slow spear less unfavourable). If both can kill in either in either number of hits then it can go either way. Against enemies that take more hits to kill, the weapons would be closer, with the extreme being bosses, where they'd have roughly the same average killing speed. [/quote] My attempt at a summary: If both weapons have a chance to do 1HKO and a chance to do 2HKO, the slow spear having a greater chance at 1HKO than the normal, then the normal speed spear would be better for

My Characters: Etherlite - 107 Bellocan Aran in Misery

mewmeister + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

[quote] Sakuraba : My attempt at a summary: If both weapons have a chance to do 1HKO and a chance to do 2HKO, the slow spear having a greater chance at 1HKO than the normal, then the normal speed spear would be better for mobs. Because there are 3 monsters, there is a greater chance that the slow spear would have to do a 2HKO (because more trials = greater chance of a probability appearing at least once), 2HKOing being a field where the normal spear would be better. A [slower yet stronger spear] can't completely 1HKO a monster than a [faster yet weaker spear] can only kill with 2HKO. If a slower spear can 1HKO most of the time, then the faster spear most likely has a pretty good chance at 1HKO as well. This weakens the 1HKO advantage given by the slower spear. [/quote] You should note that I changed my post (the one you quoted). The best summary of my posts would be (assuming the spears have the same theoretical DPS): -Always 2HKO with ski vs sometimes 1HKO but usually 2HKO with slow spear favours ski. -Always 1HKO with slow spear vs sometimes 2HKO but usually 1HKO with ski favours slow spear. -Attacking more enemies at once increases the difference further. -Sometimes 2HKO and sometime 1HKO with either could favour either depending on which of the above it's closer to. -If the ski always kills in 2 hits, the slow spear usually will too. -If the slow spear always kills in 1 hit, the ski usually will too. -Getting a ski to have the same theoretical DPS as a slow spear is relatively difficult compared to doing similar with other weapon types (e.g. getting a ST to match the DPS of a reverse 2HS). -Even people who do maths at uni can make stupid mistakes >_<

My Characters: blueeyesmew - 109 Windia Dragon Knight

Transcend 03/23/10 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

Go for both Dustin! You can afford it! c:

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88skater88 03/23/10 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

Dragons Faltizan = Training Sky Skis = Bossing Chose what you will be doing most of.

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