What's with people with max SE?

basilmarket.com forums : Bowman | 16 posts archived

thread starter coolsmiley1 Mar 18 2010 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

I don't know why some people say you have to have max SE to get into a training party. I've been invited to parties with HS with only 9 SE, probably because they're training at time, but some of my friends say I need to have max SE to join a skele party (not enough HP right now). I tell them that 21 lvls of SE isn't a big difference, but they disagree without any proof that it is better than increasing those 21 SP into other skills.

My Characters: zOmGiTzJaCkY - 125 Broa Marksman

Kevvl 03/18/10 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

[quote] Gino : Wrong. The usefulness of snipe peaks at whatever is the earliest level you have it maxed by. In my case, around 135. After that, it gets slightly worse every time your strafe damage goes up. It's only redeeming quality is its ability to punch through super def up, as well as its ability to instant kill monsters with more than 200k hp(As in neo tokyo, the place we didn't get). @Kevvl: That's odd. I guess in kradia, competition is much worse. I been turned down a lot for cwk, zak, and even pianus for not having full SE. Apparently, someone with max SE isn't so hard to find that they'd settle for less. [/quote] Actually, the difference between Snipe and No Snipe at level 200 is still around 150%. Snipe adds about a third of your damage. Also, I run in Bera. Bera's chock full of Bowmen. If anything, the high population of Bowmen means runners are more informed about how little SE actually needs to be maxed.

My Characters: NautKevvl - 51 Bera Gunslinger

Gino + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

[quote] Kevvl : Actually, the difference between Snipe and No Snipe at level 200 is still around 150%. Snipe adds about a third of your damage. Also, I run in Bera. Bera's chock full of Bowmen. If anything, the high population of Bowmen means runners are more informed about how little SE actually needs to be maxed. [/quote] That seems pretty off. At lvl 200, an average xbow would probably be doing 25k 55% of the time, and around 6k 45% of the time. Using snipe for 200k every ~10 seconds couldn't possibly be a third of total damage. Maybe theoretically it is, if snipe is 5 seconds and absolutely no summons ever get in the way ever, and the guy playing the character is using a stopwatch and timing snipe perfectly, and never gets kb'd when he's about to use snipe so it doesn't slow him down, and botting protection is disabled so he doesn't have to move after 100 shots, and he never has to use a pot while attacking or recast buffs, etc. Realistically, it's probably much less.

My Characters: GinoSil - 142 KradiaGMS Marksman

SableRain 03/18/10 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

ITT: Noobs who are trying to pretend MM is the same as a BM. TS wins. /thread.

My Characters: iHealzStuff - 153 DemethosGMS Bishop

Kevvl 03/18/10 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

[quote] Gino : That seems pretty off. At lvl 200, an average xbow would probably be doing 25k 55% of the time, and around 6k 45% of the time. Using snipe for 200k every ~10 seconds couldn't possibly be a third of total damage. Maybe theoretically it is, if snipe is 5 seconds and absolutely no summons ever get in the way ever, and the guy playing the character is using a stopwatch and timing snipe perfectly, and never gets kb'd when he's about to use snipe so it doesn't slow him down. Realistically, it's probably much less. [/quote] Stopwatch to time Snipe? Sounds way primitive, ever heard of putting a skill on your home row? You can see the cooldown there.

My Characters: NautKevvl - 51 Bera Gunslinger

ScrambledEgg 03/18/10 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

[quote] mapleaddict49 : With my BM with max SE (30) I do about 10k max critical with hurricane (I know its low). Without SE on, I do about 6k max critical. SE Makes a big difference, especially to classes with critical hit. [/quote] Yeah, but with level 9 SE, you'd be hitting 8k max (maybe more); do you REALLY want those 21 levels just to get 2k more?

My Characters: DittoBolt - 127 Khaini Marksman

Gino + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

[quote] Kevvl : Stopwatch to time Snipe? Sounds way primitive, ever heard of putting a skill on your home row? You can see the cooldown there. [/quote] Then you must be familiar with the fact that knowing when you can really use snipe again is impossible. It stays at "1 second left" status for anywhere from 1-10seconds, then it suddenly becomes usable again. No way to measure that at all.

My Characters: GinoSil - 142 KradiaGMS Marksman

Kevvl + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

^Unfamiliar? I've been using Snipe since I was 134, which is roughly a year's worth of weekly Zruns (two per week), frequent bossing, and incorporation of Snipe into my training. I'm plenty experienced enough with Snipe to know when you can or can't use it, the gray will go from a sliver to being fully white; I can usually time Snipe with my eyes closed. and we're also ignoring the 301% damage increase of Pierce, but OK. [quote] ScrambledEgg : Yeah, but with level 9 SE, you'd be hitting 8k max (maybe more); do you REALLY want those 21 levels just to get 2k more? [/quote] 10k? If that's with max Hurricane, it'd be closer to 9.1k with 10 SE.

My Characters: NautKevvl - 51 Bera Gunslinger

Gino + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

I said familiar, not unfamiliar. Meaning, you know how unreliable the cooldown icon is, right? It stays at the final stage of cooldown, just before you can use it again, but for a longer period of time than 1 second. It stays stuck there from 1-10 seconds, depending on lag. @Below: Sadly, that's not exaggerated at all for me....

My Characters: GinoSil - 142 KradiaGMS Marksman

Kevvl 03/19/10 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

Ah right, my bad. Either way, 1~10 is a gross exaggeration. Try 1-5 at worst.

My Characters: NautKevvl - 51 Bera Gunslinger

Gino 03/19/10 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

Well, I'm just saying. Snipe is incredibly overrated. Sure, it's a great supporting damage skill, but it simply can't match hurricane unless they were to make the cooldown client-sided. Even then, it'd be impossible to time it perfectly, since strafe would probably overlap with snipe time, as well as potting, moving, etc. If they made the cooldown client-sided and increased the damage cap to 300k and reduced the cooldown to 4 seconds, maybe it could possibly match hurricane up until lvl 150, then get worse. Snipe isn't the xbow's main attacking skill for 4th job. If you look closely, it replaces concentrate, whereas pierce replaces hurricane. Xbow is meant for training, while snipe is just a small complement to damage and a nice little perk to do damage through super def up. I'm tired of people treating it like it actually multiplies your damage in a very significant way.

My Characters: GinoSil - 142 KradiaGMS Marksman

Kevvl + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

Strafe doesn't overlap with Snipe, it takes exactly 5.04 seconds to fire 7 Strafes, if you time Snipe properly (which any Marksman can do with a little practice) then it's .04 seconds lost. Regardless of the server/client times, Snipe still doubles your DPS at around 14x. 15x? Hell, current Snipe with the server sided cooldown is still better than Hurricane until 160 at the earliest, and definitely better than SE from 130->160. No, it's not our main skill, but it's certainly not to be overlooked.

My Characters: NautKevvl - 51 Bera Gunslinger

Gino + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

[quote] Kevvl : Strafe doesn't overlap with Snipe, it takes exactly 5.04 seconds to fire 7 Strafes, if you time Snipe properly (which any Marksman can do with a little practice) then it's .04 seconds lost. Regardless of the server/client times, Snipe still doubles your DPS at around 14x. 15x? Hell, current Snipe with the server sided cooldown is still better than Hurricane until 160 at the earliest, and definitely better than SE from 130->160. [/quote] It's better than SE if you solo, but it doesn't double damage. Not even close. 7 strafes takes longer than 5.04 seconds. Why? Because the time between each strafe actually varies, even if you hold down the key. You can test it if you want. Not only that, but using a MP potion, getting kb'd, using hp potions, pet food+allcures, rebuffing, as well as moving to avoid the 100atk limit loses even more time. Like I keep saying, snipe is not a 5 second cooldown. More like 10-15 just from the server. Take into account human error, then it's even longer than that, because you're not gonna be using snipe the instant it comes back every single time. It takes time for your eyes to see that the skill is available again, and your finger to press the key. You need to be more realistic bro.

My Characters: GinoSil - 142 KradiaGMS Marksman

Co0lChlnX 03/19/10 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

Well to me I think that SE sure is nice to have but it's totally up to you. When I level with my bishop, I usually don't care who my partner is as long as they don't slack and I'm good to go. Beside, if you feel like snipe helps you train faster then go for it. If you do want to constantly boss hunt at this level, then I would say SE because when you get a party, they would want SE.

My Characters: Vurqate - 50 Mardia Aran in Memory

Whami 03/19/10 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

[quote] Gino : It's better than SE if you solo, but it doesn't double damage. Not even close. 7 strafes takes longer than 5.04 seconds. Why? Because the time between each strafe actually varies, even if you hold down the key. You can test it if you want. Not only that, but using a MP potion, getting kb'd, using hp potions, pet food+allcures, rebuffing, as well as moving to avoid the 100atk limit loses even more time. Like I keep saying, snipe is not a 5 second cooldown. More like 10-15 just from the server. Take into account human error, then it's even longer than that, because you're not gonna be using snipe the instant it comes back every single time. It takes time for your eyes to see that the skill is available again, and your finger to press the key. You need to be more realistic bro. [/quote] Realistic? I thought we were comparing percentages. Because realistically 9 SE and 30 SE is a barely noticeable change. Why? Nobody will be attacking at perfect optimum shots per minute, effectively decreasing those other levels of SE. To the point of strafe, that's just irrelevant. We make data on the assumption that the boss doesn't hit us and we don't have to pot. This actually makes it more fair for BMs because they can't hit during SWEPDEF and they take longer to start up Hurricane than we do strafe. They also consume MP quite a bit faster than we do. And don't assume that you can never achieve 4 second Snipes. Plenty can do it if they're near West/Midwest and have a good internet connection. But either way, maxing Pierce OR Snipe would help you in Training/Bossing more than 30 SE ever will. Bossing parties only want SE, not specifically MAX SE. If they need that small amount of boost chances are they're HTing and you already have max SE regardless. Training parties will RARELY consist of more than one MM and two NLs(which is already too many people in my book) and most NLs won't notice anything other than the timer. On a side note, realistically, NLs will FJ into Zak before Zak is dead anyways :D

My Characters: Baltimoar - 105 Khaini Sniper

linking 03/19/10 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

[quote] mapleaddict49 : With my BM with max SE (30) I do about 10k max critical with hurricane (I know its low). Without SE on, I do about 6k max critical. SE Makes a big difference, especially to classes with critical hit. [/quote] yes SE makes a large difference, but the increase from 1SE to 30SE is rather small in comparison.

My Characters: Shiek77354 - 133 Khaini I/L Arch Mage