Is lukless only marginally better than normal luk?

basilmarket.com forums : Cleric to Bishop | 9 posts archived

thread starter Sorrenn13 Feb 06 2010 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

I made a lukless cleric, and im enjoying pretty high damage with heal. He's well equiped and has a 105 shine wand waiting for him to use. People are saying to me that being lukless was useless and that the damage is only slightly better. Is this true? For instance does anyone know what a lv.1 genesis hit with a lukless at 120 would be vs. normal luk...?(well equiped) Thanks

My Characters: Evrestt - 124 Broa Bow Master

MastaSella 02/06/10 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

It's not useless and the damage is noticeably better than normal luk mages.

My Characters: MagicWarloc - 135 Windia Bishop

iPr0Fr3sh 02/06/10 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

Ok, Say both have no funding. Both have all clean equips for their level. Lukless would hit way higher with gen because more int

My Characters: iPr0Dark - 57 KradiaGMS Assassin

Sorrenn13 02/06/10 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

k thats what i thought, gotta tell my friend he's stupid xD thanks

My Characters: Evrestt - 124 Broa Bow Master

Beggy + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

Equips, equips, equips and yet more equips. Oh did I mention equips? It is possible for a low LUK mage to have an identical, even surpass the Matk value of a LUKless mage. However given equal funding (which Basil loves doing because it's a foregone conclusion, bypasses the concept of competition entirely and is a scenario that you'll never come across in-game other than with respect to your own hypothetical character), LUKless would have a higher Matk value. The discrepancy for archmages is usually something like 20 to 30 less than your base LUK's worth of INT (based on casual observation, after taking into account clean base stats of mage equips) lost which has to be made up with equips (not hard, but obviously harder the higher your base is). I dunno about bishops, but bishops can't be that much different if not identical; the mage damage formula sucks too much to be affected hugely by Eweapons. I swear I mentioned it was all about the equips. If I didn't here it is again: it's all in the equips.

My Characters: Gobbins - 166 Scania I/L Arch Mage

JosiahsFriend 02/06/10 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

The fact is though, even with the equips and change in base luk, mages never really gain a big difference in damage. The only time matters to clerics is the time when you are going from 2 hitting skeles to 1 hitting skeles. Otherwise, damage doesn't matter, and can't be changed greatly. We aren't like w atk characters.

My Characters: ClericsKing1 - 96 Windia Priest

Viaje + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

[quote] Beggy : Equips, equips, equips and yet more equips. Oh did I mention equips? It is possible for a low LUK mage to have an identical, even surpass the Matk value of a LUKless mage. However given equal funding (which Basil loves doing because it's a foregone conclusion, bypasses the concept of competition entirely and is a scenario that you'll never come across in-game other than with respect to your own hypothetical character), LUKless would have a higher Matk value. The discrepancy for archmages is usually something like 20 to 30 less than your base LUK's worth of INT (based on casual observation, after taking into account clean base stats of mage equips) lost which has to be made up with equips (not hard, but obviously harder the higher your base is). I dunno about bishops, but bishops can't be that much different if not identical; the mage damage formula sucks too much to be affected hugely by Eweapons . I swear I mentioned it was all about the equips. If I didn't here it is again: it's all in the equips. [/quote] I'm not sure whether you're referring to the 125% boost for same-element attacks or the -25% Bishops incur for using one, but, either way, it IS a pretty big deal. And, yeah, it's all about equips, but it's been proven multiple times in this forum that for a Low-Luk Bishop to outpace a Lukless Bishop would take a ridiculous amount of extra funding for the Low-Luk. And, even then, it would be by about ~10 extra M.Att. People don't create an equal-funding scenario in an attempt to disregard competition, and I don't know why you'd think that. If a Lukless Bishop beats out a Luk Bishop at a certain amount of funding, chances are they can still beat them with more money. That said, the above poster is correct: it doesn't make a damn bit of difference unless you're close to OHKOing Skeles.

My Characters: Zyrise - 111 Khaini White Knight

Beggy + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

While the difference between LUKless/low LUK AMs is indeed larger than that of bishops, It's nothing to write home about, at all. There's something like 1-2k damage in it. Take a LUKless AM, a low LUK AM, a LUKless bishop and a low LUK bishop, at any similar levels above 130. Give the low LUK AM/Bishop identical stats (slightly lower than the LUKless of course), and the LUKless AM/Bishop identical stats (feasibly higher than the Low LUK mages, like 30 Matk more) for comparison purposes. Obviously the LUKless AM/Bishop would do more damage, but that's not really the point. The point is that the AM would have an Ewand/Amp and the Bishop wouldn't, so would those extra multipliers make the difference in raw damage with Ults between the AMs so much larger than the difference in raw damage with Ults between the bishops like it's reputed to? For example, take LUKless Matk/INT values of 1150/950 (how this is obtained isn't important, so long as it's higher than the low LUK for comparison purposes), and low LUK Matk/INT values of 1130/930 (must be pretty well funded to get that close but again that's not important as it's solely for comparison purposes). These figures are fairly achievable and realistic for 15x-16x. With the Matk formula we have, this'd give the following figures: For the LUKless AM using blizzard30 on neutral w/ Ewand, Amp30: Max damage = 86948, Min damage = 69359. For the Low LUK AM using blizzard30 on neutral w/ Ewand, Amp30: Max damage = 84618, Min damage = 67334. For the LUKless Bishop using genesis30 on neutral: Max damage = 58402, Min damage = 46587. For the low LUK Bishop using genesis30 on neutral: Max damage = 56836, Min damage = 45227. Expected damage difference between the LUKless and low LUK bishops: Max = 58402 - 56836 = 1566, Min = 46587 - 45227 = 1360. Expected damage difference between the LUKless and low LUK AMs: Max = 86948 - 84618 = 2330, Min = 69359 - 67334 = 2025. Comparing these differences between the AMs and bishops, it's clear that the 1.25 and 1.4 multipliers on damage isn't making a huge impact on the differences in the slightest. To be specific: Difference comparison: Max = 2330 - 1566 = 764, Min = 2025 - 1360 = 665. So the presence of those multipliers has resulted in an average damage discrepancy between the different types of AMS/Bishops of (764+665)/2 = ~714. OH GOD MY CHARACTER IS CRIPPLED SUCH A BIG DEAL MUST RESTART AS LUKLESS ;~;. I hope I wrote this better this time 'round than I did last. Confused ravkin (and myself) to hell lol. Regardless, it's clear the LUKless has a damage advantage here anyway, so GO LUKLESS U GUISE@@@@ But yeah, all that was a complete waste of my time seeing as it makes no difference whatsoever to the gameplay of the character unless you're on the verge of 2/1-hkoing skeles lolol. Splitting hairs like that is just asking for trouble. Also, just a tad jaded over the whole LUKless vs low LUK thing. People do the comparisons all the time and the answer is always the same, why bot

My Characters: Gobbins - 166 Scania I/L Arch Mage

rjscott93 02/08/10 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

ive made an i/l lukless and luk i/l with identical equips to lvl 70 and its not very noticeable the difference untill you hit about lvl 50 then the lukless clearly is the victor. but saying that a low luk can maybe match a lukless thats assuming the lukless doesnt have the same funding. becuase if a lukless can get the same funding as that uberfunded lowluk that can match it then there is no chance.

My Characters: RobsBish - 40 Bellocan Cleric