The Stickyfingers Sticky

basilmarket.com forums : Bandit to Shadower | 15 posts archived

thread starter shagreenheart Aug 30 2009 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

try n get this sweet mother up on the sticky board, because nobody knows or states the facts and everyone verbally abuses the skill steal. i'm basically gonna c&p from the thread i answered earliar about it with additional info. Steal Steal is the defining skill of the bandit class. If you don't understand that I suggest you write to Merriam Webster to tell him that "WRONG NOOB. ''DITS' don't steal, they just attack stuff then blow the money up." They'll get a laugh outta that one. I'm here to state the realities of steal, almost no bandit is aware of because of the propogated ignorance against it. Hopefully I can help you understand the skill's complexity and to decide if you should put points in it or not. xxxxxxxxx Steal Master Level: 30 Type: Active Pre-requisite: Haste Lv. 5 Description: Enables the character to steal an item from an enemy with a certain success rate. Only one clean steal per monster, but multiple attempts can take place in the process. Level 1: MP -12; 11% success rate to steal, apply 42% in damage Level 2: MP -12; 12% success rate to steal, apply 44% in damage Level 3: MP -12; 13% success rate to steal, apply 46% in damage Level 4: MP -12; 14% success rate to steal, apply 48% in damage Level 5: MP -12; 15% success rate to steal, apply 50% in damage Level 6: MP -12; 16% success rate to steal, apply 52% in damage Level 7: MP -12; 17% success rate to steal, apply 54% in damage Level 8: MP -12; 18% success rate to steal, apply 56% in damage Level 9: MP -12; 19% success rate to steal, apply 58% in damage Level 10: MP -12; 20% success rate to steal, apply 60% in damage Level 11: MP -12; 21% success rate to steal, apply 62% in damage Level 12: MP -12; 22% success rate to steal, apply 64% in damage Level 13: MP -12; 23% success rate to steal, apply 66% in damage Level 14: MP -12; 24% success rate to steal, apply 68% in damage Level 15: MP -12; 25% success rate to steal, apply 70% in damage Level 16: MP -24; 26% success rate to steal, apply 72% in damage Level 17: MP -24; 27% success rate to steal, apply 74% in damage Level 18: MP -24; 28% success rate to steal, apply 76% in damage Level 19: MP -24; 29% success rate to steal, apply 78% in damage Level 20: MP -24; 30% success rate to steal, apply 80% in damage Level 21: MP -24; 31% success rate to steal, apply 82% in damage Level 22: MP -24; 32% success rate to steal, apply 84% in damage Level 23: MP -24; 33% success rate to steal, apply 86% in damage Level 24: MP -24; 34% success rate to steal, apply 88% in damage Level 25: MP -24; 35% success rate to steal, apply 90% in damage Level 26: MP -24; 36% success rate to steal, apply 92% in damage Level 27: MP -24; 37% success rate to steal, apply 94% in damage Level 28: MP -24; 38% success rate to steal, apply 96% in damage Level 29: MP -24; 39% success rate to steal, apply 98% in damage Level 30: MP -24; 40% success rate to steal, apply 100% in damage Steal allows you to steal one of ANY item a monster drops. However, when you steal me

Slatz 08/31/09 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

Im sorry but i do not think this thread deserves to be stickied, i do not find this usefull at all. also you say "Bandits" steal in your fantasy world i would say that as i am a "Chief Bandit" you would steal items and bring them to me therefore i do not steal only take goods from little noob bandits

Axel35 08/31/09 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

didnt u already try this guide? not gonna bother re writing how bad this is.

LampShadow Aug 31 2009 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

Not every game gets it right dude...Maple just sorta screwed up the skill steal and never bothered to fix it. Math doesn't lie though I'm afraid, and your logic behind the math is flawed. Even if steal did increase the drop rate by 17%, does that 17% make up for the time lost using steal on that monster? You use examples higher than second job so allow me to show you an example: Alright, let's say you're lvl 90 and have maxed out BoT. Then you go to drumming bunnies and hope to farm up some chaos scrolls. Now let's say that theoretically drumming bunnies have a 33% chance of dropping chaos scrolls, a 33% chance of dropping a drum, and a 33% chance of dropping nothing. Now, I'm not sure how much math you've taken but I'm about to whip out some statistics. I won't bother showing my math since I'm typing this on my wii but if you insist I can show it to you later. Alright, so for our theoretical experiment let's have you kill 36 drumming bunnies. If you can attack them with BoT you can kill them all in 6 hits. If you use steal it will take you 36 hits. Already it's taken you 6 times longer to kill the mob, but let's look at what the statistics say. In one hit of BoT you will kill 6 of the bunnies, meaning that there is a 99.87% chance that you'll get a chaos scroll from that single attack. If you attack one of them with steal, based on your theory, there will be an 83.5% chance that the one bunny would drop a chaos scroll. This is already proof enough that BoT is more efficient at farming these theoretical bunnies per hit, but we'll continue the experiments because your point will be proven. Now, if we continue to kill the entire mob of bunnies something interesting happens. Using BoT, it only takes 3 hits to kill the mob. Which means that your overall chance of getting a chaos scroll will be 99.99999978%. If you used steal to kill the mob of bunnies it will take you 36 hits, giving you an overall chance of stealing a chaos scroll to be 100% (though technically there is a slight chance of not getting one, but it is to a factor of around 6x10^-27%). So, this shows us that if you were limited in the amount of monsters that you could kill then the steal method is better. However, most situations in maple are not restricted by mob size because of a thing called spawn rate, but that will be the subject of our last theoretical experiment. Now lastly, let's look at what happens if you were not limited in the amount of monsters, but rather the amount of attacks, or time. If you were to use BoT on a mob of continuously spawning bunnies, and use 36 attacks like the person using steal used, then he ends up killing 216 bunnies, giving him an overall total of a 100% chance of getting a chaos scroll (here's where I wish I had used smaller numbers...basically, the percentage is so low it's too small for my calculator to handle. Which means however that the percent error of not getting a chaos scroll while using BoT in this method is >1x10^-99, which is billions of

shagreenheart 08/31/09 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

time has nothing to do with the fact that it increases the drop rate of all items because one item is elliminated. it becomes a significant increase in % no matter what, i have countless first hand accounts of getting oddlly large groups of drop items after the steal, especially when the item i stole is something less common, like potions, ores, powders, or equips. just in the time it takes to do the monster operation quests in ludi i STOLE a green knucklevest, and stealing before the kill significantly increased the chance for eggs and worms to drop, no doubt whatsoever about it, including a pair of blue knucklevest pants in a steal, then kill situation. and i'm willing to bet i get a lot more drops of any item in general than somone not using steal, the confidence to back this up is simple experience and watching my drops compared to others during training. while normal drops like etc, mesos look insignificant to you, i feel like i understand everything that's going on much better. granted, i can't mob, but even when i can i know i'll always use steal over killing because the increase in drops are assured. the hypothetical situation you posed, even though it is exactly like mine, is biased because that's not realistic at all, whereas the lmpq, actually is and the odds of getting tickets are vastly improved, meaning it's really dumb to just kill when you can help yourself out a ton by stealing, time will never be a factor in the equtions because it has absolutely nothing to do with the math or outcome. i'm not sure how i sound ignorant to you, because everything i'm saying is true, this guide clears up a lot of unknowns about steal, so someone doesn't have to make a thread asking about what it does, and people just saying it's useless, like we had happen earliar. i'm not bias, i'm not making any of this up, and your scenario is totally irrelevant to the actual outcome. and steal only working 40% of the time has nothing to do with it either, it's also a 'matter of time' and the drop increase is assured, every time.

pavchka 08/31/09 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

If Steal were a mob skill OR hadn't been changed (it used to have a 60% droprate and 160% damage at master level) I'd probably use it, but at the places I'm training using Steal will cost me more money than it'll give me. :S When 20-30 Typhons are beleaguring me Steal isn't exactly the best skill to use. I made a thread similar to yours (only less lyrical and more objective) and got flamed my ass of too, so I wouldn't expect much of a result of your effort. People only focus on leveling here, even when they've just gotten to a new job.

orangeking11 08/31/09 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

Lol The thing about your "wheel" is that it almost makes no difference. You can only make 1 effective Steal from a monster, and since your chances of just getting mesos is much higher, it's rare for that "wheel" to come into play. xD

YENNOX 08/31/09 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

I see our knowledgeable NL friend is noticing the drama in the Bandit section. It's lively isn't it? I hope the Sin section is going fine, because our party is still going

orangeking11 08/31/09 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

YENNOX : I see our knowledgeable NL friend is noticing the drama in the Bandit section. It's lively isn't it? I hope the Sin section is going fine, because our party is still going Bandit forum is to drama party as Sin forum is to the work office. We do get a bit of drama, but it's usually from outsiders, not the workers (usually it's just a Sin-hater/disliker that comes in and posts a thread with "facts"). But yeah, I do like to wander out of my cubicle and see what's goin' on around here. xD

pavchka 08/31/09 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

orangeking11 : Bandit forum is to drama party as Sin forum is to the work office. We do get a bit of drama, but it's usually from outsiders, not the workers (usually it's just a Sin-hater/disliker that comes in and posts a thread with "facts"). But yeah, I do like to wander out of my cubicle and see what's goin' on around here. xD "OMG ASSASSINS USE ONLY 1 SKILL THEYRE SO BORING" Now you see what "many" skills lead to... be happy! XD

orangeking11 Aug 31 2009 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

pavchka : "OMG ASSASSINS USE ONLY 1 SKILL THEYRE SO BORING" Now you see what "many" skills lead to... be happy! XD For Sins/Hermits/NLs, when it comes to skills like Web, Storm, Drain, Taunt, etc. that aren't as commonly used, it's pretty much understood that the skills have an amount of potential use we mostly agree on, it just depends on the player how much they are used. A few "Is this skill useful?" threads do come up, but it usually gets a quick explain+/end thread. But when it comes to this TS, I think we just have a disagreement with him on the potential use of Steal. Let the battle of the facts continue! xD Edit: My opinion is that Steal can be an aid in some situations, just that the TS is making it seem more important a skill than it actually is. xD Plus his "facts" have been known to be off, which is probably why he's such an easy target for flames. For example: "They drop 3 things a) nothing, b) mana elixir, c) 50 tickets. Nothing is a drop because they are the negative % on the pie charts. You'll get an item no matter what if you steal from them, so let's say it's the elixir. You now have a 50% chance of the tickets dropping" Yeah... I got a feeling that the chances of dropping each, nothing, MP eilixir, and tix aren't equal. xD

shagreenheart 08/31/09 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

sin, that math is right on. and i can't inflate this skill to be better than it is, and i'm not tellin anyone to put points into let alone max it. i use it every day when i'm bored and it really helps on drops. yah i had some old %'s for skill tables but that's long gone and i have a totally revised guide anyway. and pav... i'm not sure why at all you would decide to use steal to take out a hoard of typhons, cause it makes about as much sense to just stand there thinking that they'll go way after awhile whilst endure heals you. that's not using it intelligently at all.

Mejust Sep 01 2009 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

Let�s start with the following bit: shaggy : However, when you steal mesos, the monster can also drop mesos. The value of stolen mesos are half of the normal dropped mesos, so you can earn 1.5x the normal amount of mesos, pretty cool. Let us assume a training situation where you 1-hit all the monsters with SB. You can decide to Steal each enemy once and then finish them with SB, and thus have a 40% chance of getting a drop which most likely is some mesos. Let�s assume you have like a 90% chance of getting the mesos when Steal is successful; this basically means you have a 36% chance of getting per use of Steal. Along with the normal drop, which has a droprate of 60% (I�ll get to this later on). Which in return means you have a 21.6% chance of getting both mesos drops and thus 1.5x mesos. Which means that on average, you get 1.1x mesos per monster. Now, if you use this method, it�ll obviously take the time needed for Steal and SB. That takes 600+720ms, 1320ms total and you will kill 60000 / 1320 = 45.5 of your training monsters per minute. This also means you�ll get 45.5 * 1.1 = 50x the average mesos the monster in question drops. However, if you simply killed the monsters without the interference of Steal, you�d have a 60% chance of getting mesos and killing would take only 720ms. This would lead to 83.3 attacks per minute and 83.3 * 0.6 = 50x the average mesos the monster in question drops. So in this situation both methods make the same amount of mesos per time unit, but the second method obviously gets far more exp. I think this is a trend amongst the other possible scenarios. shaggaman : If you steal or mug an enemy, you actually increase drop rate, and here's how. When you steal/mug, you effectively remove that item, not counting meso steal/mugs from the enemy drop "wheel" (a good visualization is to imagine every item on their individual pie chart, super imposed ontop of eachother at once, spinning together in the same direction with whatever % they have to drop at the same time) therefore increasing you drop rate! This may not sound effective at first but the less items the monster has, the better for your droprate. You effectively increase your drop rate by -1 from drop wheel increasing your rate by the percent of the sum of items. Taunt shrinks the wheels even more. I use that as an example because it's a skill you can always use once you have it, unlike 2x drop cards. Out of all ways to implement a drop system, this is the by far most complicated one and it�s also stupid when you take reality into account. What your system does is basically this in terms of programming; When the monster dies a list with numbers is made and some numbers or ranges in this list represent items the monster can drop or if it will drop nothing at all, then a random number generator produces a number and if it matches a number on that list, the item the number represents will drop. When Steal removes a droppable item from this list, the number(s) it represents

LampShadow Aug 31 2009 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

I basically just proved mathematically steal's uselessness and usefulness. Sure there are hundreds of variables out there but they won't affect the final outcome. Math doesn't lie, what else needs to be said? xP We should just let the TS take a few statistics/physics/calculus courses and let him come up with the same answer on his own. It's getting to the point where it's like arguing with someone over religion and politics >.< He's too steadfast to change his views and logic/reason have no affect on him

NewExpiliict 08/31/09 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

Best thing that happened to the Bandit Section. I love this argument. I would like to clarify that, Let's say what you said about Steal is realistic. It gives better drop rate thereafter and so on. Steal is good, but there is one factor which hampers it. Time. Steal takes an awfully long time to kill. It hits once, perhaps dealing more damage. But slowere nonetheless. It could also be the allocation of points. If one was to max steal, he would have none for some of the more important ones. Not that Steal is not important ( Like you have stated). Its just not practical.