Why max flamethrower(30) over ice splitter(26)?

basilmarket.com forums : Gunslinger to Corsair | 15 posts archived

thread starter Kraevyn Aug 25 2009 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

I realize that flamethrower will outdamage ice splitter at all levels, and it grows by 3% per point compared to 2%. However, flamethrower is undeniably going to be used less frequently than splitter over the coarse of your outlaw/corsairs life. For example, at newties an outlaw is known to ice/burst spam/ice/burst spam. The outlaw never uses flamethrower once in this situation, so if you put those 4 last skillpoints into flame instead of ice, you basically reduce your DPS (even if only by the slightest of margins.) In fact, flamethrower is only used on mobbing maps and only while an outlaw that is 100-120ish (the 20 levels where you actually might have flame/ice both maxed out while still being too low for cannon/torpedo), and in these situations, it is alternated cast by cast with ice splitter. Considering that thrower will -always- be followed by ice, the total damage of your cast combo is only reduced by 4% on the flamethrowers side (-12% for flamethrower, but +8% for ice) This difference is even less significant than the potential gain in all other situations where you would use a maxed splitter instead. So really, why max thrower? Let's face it, yeah ice splitter might not be used for it's damage and flamethrower is, but you use ice so much more than flame, that the 8% ice damage outweighs the 12% fire damage that is barely ever gonna be used.

FroznSolid Aug 25 2009 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

Fire is a atk skill, Ice Splitter is a freezing skill. The purpose of fire is to do mob damage, the purpose of ice is to freeze. and there is no place [besides himes, which suck and gobies, which suck more] where you can use both. At nightshadows it is possible to use fire/burst [they are immune to ice], but if you don't get max fire you lose out on alot of damage. Look at this except from a guide "That could be 50-60 damage, which, while seems miniscule, across mobs of 5-6 monsters, that increases to 250-360 damage, and when you 5-6 hit KO monsters, that gap increases to 1250-2160 damage lost. It can be the difference between a 5 hit KO, or a 6 hit KO. [Wall of Text Alert] In 4th job, the extra 8% in ice will NEVER be the difference between a 3 or a 4 hit KO. the numbers from Cannon and Torpedo will overshadow it disproportionately, and the increase of 500-720 damage of an attack used once on a mob (most corsairs can kill skele/newtie mobs with just 1 freeze, many in their 14x-15x don't even need to freeze them, they can kill them before their m. atk finally atks) will NOT get you a 1 hit less KO. There are simply much bigger numbers at work (compare the 500-720 damage ONCE to the barrage of 40k cannons and 20k torpedo's (to mobs of 5-6 when talking about torpedo)." Source: http://taintedsouls.darkbb.com/pirate-f14/gunslinger-in-depth-3rd-and-4th-job-builds-t199.htm That guide sums it up well.

Efemera Aug 25 2009 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

In all honesty, it doesn't make a difference. I maxed Flamethrower, but I mostly use it as a finisher. I have 26 Ice Splitter, and I mostly use it to freeze. Your main damage skills in training are Burst Fire, Cannon, Torpedo, and Air Strike. Flamethrower does hit some pretty nice numbers with high levels of Elemental Boost, and I see myself using it more often as I max EB. If I can kill a mob of weakened monsters that have 15-20k HP in 1 Flamethrower, it's a lot faster to do that than Torpedo. It's just a shame that Oblivion monsters are Fire-res.

MistuhSair 08/25/09 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

Well for me, I completely took out Flowerthrower out of my keyboard because, I found it useless. Maybe it's because I don't have a Blaze Capsule or a high leveled EB. By the way Eferma, what level is your EB?

Efemera 08/25/09 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

MistuhSair : Well for me, I completely took out Flowerthrower out of my keyboard because, I found it useless. Maybe it's because I don't have a Blaze Capsule or a high leveled EB. By the way Eferma, what level is your EB? 1, and it's still useful. You need a Blaze Capsule. Of course your Flamethrower is useless if it does 2k damage.

MJRmutation 08/25/09 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

honestly, id doesnt matter, cuz by the tim eyou get to the lvl where you even start to get any points on fire, you are gonna either be sniping at newts or freeze sniping at newts, and there you dont need fire at newts. and torpedo replaces all other mobs that you will get, and air strike you will almost never use during actual training. so you may want that extra 8% dmg of ice, then again you could want a mobber to KS noobs with at HHG that can hit 5k. but if you do max fire, you will need fire capsules.

FroznSolid 08/25/09 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

MJRmutation : honestly, id doesnt matter, cuz by the tim eyou get to the lvl where you even start to get any points on fire, you are gonna either be sniping at newts or freeze sniping at newts, and there you dont need fire at newts. and torpedo replaces all other mobs that you will get, and air strike you will almost never use during actual training. so you may want that extra 8% dmg of ice, then again you could want a mobber to KS noobs with at HHG that can hit 5k. but if you do max fire, you will need fire capsules. True, but with fire you have the ability to go to nightshadows early [before 120]. If you go there 120+, you can train there how starwolf did, it actually looks enjoyable and a anti-pot burn.

turretman544 08/25/09 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

Does 30 ice splitter freeze longer than 26 splitter (if only by a little)? If so, then i think its much more worth it to max splitter rather than flamethrower.

MJRmutation 08/25/09 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

turretman544 : Does 30 ice splitter freeze longer than 26 splitter (if only by a little)? If so, then i think its much more worth it to max splitter rather than flamethrower. no. its the same. if it wasnt then ele boost would be pointless.

Kraevyn 08/25/09 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

Basically I look at it this way. If you use ice splitter 100 times, and flamethrower 50 times, is 8%x100 (800%) or 12%x50 (600%) more important. The obvious answer is the 800%, which comes from investing in splitter instead of thrower. Now I'm not a corsair/high level outlaw yet, but I'm pretty sure you will use icesplitter at least twice as often as flamethrower for general use right? Again, you only ever use flamethrower for mobbing fire weak monsters and when up against 6. You use ice splitter -everywhere- and you will continue to use it even at the corsair level, when flamethrower is overshadowed by cannon. I dunno, the guide reccomends 26 ice and 30 flamethrower, but I think that 26 flamethrower and 30 ice is just better o_O even when you are 6-mobbing at fire weak enemies, you wont do -that- much less damage, and in order to maximumize flamethrower attack speed, you -must- alternate with ice anyway.. so those skillpoints taken away from flame are still adding damage to your combo.

SoupySoupy 08/26/09 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

FroznSolid : True, but with fire you have the ability to go to nightshadows early [before 120]. If you go there 120+, you can train there how starwolf did, it actually looks enjoyable and a anti-pot burn. I went with the flame build and I can say, even with that newt sniping was better exp than any mob I could possible go to. Flame is useless.

Raikiriii 08/26/09 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

Kraevyn : Basically I look at it this way. If you use ice splitter 100 times, and flamethrower 50 times, is 8%x100 (800%) or 12%x50 (600%) more important. The obvious answer is the 800%, which comes from investing in splitter instead of thrower. Now I'm not a corsair/high level outlaw yet, but I'm pretty sure you will use icesplitter at least twice as often as flamethrower for general use right? Again, you only ever use flamethrower for mobbing fire weak monsters and when up against 6. You use ice splitter -everywhere- and you will continue to use it even at the corsair level, when flamethrower is overshadowed by cannon. I dunno, the guide reccomends 26 ice and 30 flamethrower, but I think that 26 flamethrower and 30 ice is just better o_O even when you are 6-mobbing at fire weak enemies, you wont do -that- much less damage, and in order to maximumize flamethrower attack speed, you -must- alternate with ice anyway.. so those skillpoints taken away from flame are still adding damage to your combo. You're overlooking the fact that even if you use splitter a LOT more, the 1-2k damage isn't going to do anything at all to let's say, give you the ability to go from 3 hitting a monster, to 2hitting it. So it doesn't really matter all that much, unless you're at the point where you can 2hit something 50% of the time, and 3 hit it the other 50% and there's a tiny little fragment of hp left, is all I'd ever see splitter being useful for. It'd probably be good to just get 30 splitter just in case you run into that problem though eh?

Kraevyn 08/26/09 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

Let's just say you have 1,000 average damage range. 8% of that is 80, 12% is 120. If you use ice splitter twice as often as flamethrower, that's 160 damage vs 120 damage, or 40 more. If your argument is 120 helps make it a 2 shot KO instead of a 3 shot KO better than 80 damage dealt twice, you're wrong XP The fact is even if it deals only 80 damage per hit, getting in 2 hits for every 1 flame gives ice splitter double the chances to make that "1 less attack" difference. I mean it's very simple, 160 is more than 120, and 160/120 (4/3) basically means you make that difference 4 times with ice for every 3 times flame makes that difference over time. This assumes a 2/1 ratio of using ice vs using flame btw. I see myself using ice waaaaay more than 2/1 personally, how about you? =P Anyway I bring this up because no one seems to have even considered this before, and I feel like max splitter, 26 flame should be the general build o_o I mean, yes, it's not a big difference either way you look at it, but if 30 splitter is indeed superior, then why the hell not use it? I mean it just feels like people are using 30 flame and 26 ice out of ignorance, just because the prior guides never took into consideration that ice is used sooo damn much more. It's like disregarding your jab because your right hook hurts more. You still jab more, so why not do it right lol.

Raikiriii Aug 26 2009 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

ffffffffuuuuuu. just typed out some huge response and my basil crashed *facepalm* basically what I was saying, i think i gave an example so let me just cut to that. example: you're training at skele, my level, cannon 2 hits skele, torp 3 hits skele. now ice is only used for one thing, and that's to freeze them. the damage from ice isn't going to help me kill them any faster it's not that people are overlooking that ice could be more useful, it's just that both skills don't really matter at all for damage in 4th job. fire helps out in 3rd job when at night shadows or gobies, so that's why most people like to max it instead. i'm not trying to convince you to not max ice or something, if you want to max it, go for it. 'cause there might be that one rare occasion where you're going to be short a bit of damage to kill something, and that extra 8% from max splitter would've finished it off, but it isn't going to happen that often i can assure you, thus once again, it doesn't really matter which you choose. /copy&pasteb4submit

SoupySoupy 08/26/09 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT

Raikiriii : unless you're at the point where you can 2hit something 50% of the time, and 3 hit it the other 50% and there's a tiny little fragment of hp left, is all I'd ever see splitter being useful for. It'd probably be good to just get 30 splitter just in case you run into that problem though eh? Yeah, this is what I'd recommend. Even if it's only useful for those occasions it's still more useful than those extra points in flamethrower.